love and heretics

It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness

Humanist! the cause of all evil !!

On a discussion board I post on, someone made an all too common accusation against the humanist….
the nontheist….recording first a tragedy and then tacking this on to the end…

“You humanists need to take note how your stupidity plays out on street level…
Sooner or later it will get too deep for you snotty elitists to escape it in your ivory towers, no matter how disattached you are now…
No matter how far above we peons you believe yourselves to be, it will overtake you…
And by the time that it does, it will be much worse than it is now…
And I can’t think of a more perfect picture of irony…

found HERE

My only answer  continues to be…

god belief doesn’t stop crime, or change our situation, in fact in only gives those who would be wicked, a way to be powerfully wicked.

But this is a very common accusation thrown out against humanism, and atheism by the believer.

Without belief in a creator….where does love, justice, forgiveness, kindness, sacrifice for the greater good, compassion, charity….come from?

The same ol’ one can’t be good without god schtick….which I believe simply isn’t true as I discussed previously HERE

The general argument against this irrationality is to go on the defense….obviously…when has religion shown a high moral

standard that all agree upon? (and the icky stuff in the old testament is used, the brutality of the cross, and sacrificial atonement,

Oh and don’t forget the sneaking pedophiles who run rampant within religion, or the lovely church (whose name will NOT be

mentioned/ no free publicity here!)  that likes to protest funerals and say ugly things to those in mourning….The hypocritical tele

evangelists…caught with there pants down…and funds misused and what not…Plenty of ammo for that defense…

But I prefer the offense.

Humanism is not out to destroy humanity…far from it.  As I lost belief in god, I did not suddenly want to do selfish and mean

things…I shed some magical thinking that nearly caused me to walk off the deep end, I lost some stress about why bad things were

happening….but I maintained a love for my friends, my family, and the earth…and all that share this home-place (earth) with us…
I have heard stories about some who truly believe without belief in god, they would become horrid, stealing, killing, and all kinds

of stuff…if your belief keeps you from this than by all means…keep your belief…

But for the most of us…it just is not necessary.

If you believe for other reasons…

perhaps and experience, or for hope for a lost loved one…this i can understand…

but don’t try to say that without this belief…the rest of us have no hope, love, sense of justice …or cannot build our own moral

values, and have and maintain character….

We are…in the end all human…whatever we believe or don’t believe…

and we have a choice about how we relate to others….



  1. How sad, indeed! Can man make man? Did man make the first man? Did man make earth? If not, who did? If there is no God, no ultimate form of power, authority, or control, then, who makes the rules? And, who says that they are right? Ideally, it would be the freedom to do anything that feels good, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of any other human, but, history has proven, this does not work. We need laws. We need structure. We need authority, despite how we rebel against this. What keeps the evil from being its worst? What holds back the beast in all of us? Is it us alone? Is everything left up to random chance? Are there no solid rights and wrongs? Is there nothing more powerful than man? Does mere chance control the hurricane, the earthquake, and all the weather we see? Who says what love is? Who says what is good? If it is merely your opinion, why should I agree?

    • You have asked some very good questions here sis, and if you are upfor it , when I get back (must run to a staff meeting) I would love to discuss this further. Thanks for the response. Love you ! And will be back soon.

    • Can man make man? many would argue…we do… 😉 did he make the first? doubtful…does this mean a god did it? I do not think that is the only possibility…Did man make earth? doubtful…(unless we were part of some sort of system that set up this world as a matrix type experiment for experience…unlimited possibilities if one wants to open that door…) does this leave only “god did it” as the last option? again…I think not. Who makes the rules?
      Now THAT is a good question. I know where you are coming from…I even remember the first time I asked an atheist (bless his heart) poster what his reasons were for love, being kind…(or as was occurring on that discussion board at the time…donating money to a christian poster who was assumedly at risk for losing his legs) My questions could have caused him to have a fit on me…probably would have for many. But he was kind, and very patient as he explained that there was a very good chance this fellow poster was deceiving us, but he in good conscience was willing to take that risk, and send money to help ease his suffering…as he was in a place where he was able to not only check on the poster, but could afford to send money. But why? Because he believed that lessening suffering was a part of humanism….tied up in empathy, compassion, and being a part of one….(humanity)
      Who makes the rules? Do you believe God does? if so…what rules? and…how are they enforced? and why have they changed and evolved with mankind’s evolution of knowledge and understanding? We do require laws/rules to live in a society. Because we do all have differing tastes. If we were to live on an island alone…such would not be needed…
      but if we are to live in a social setting …among others…we quicly discover things that are required in social settings…in order to survive. cooperation, responsibility, honesty, etc..
      also, due to our ability to empathize, we can understand how we would like to be treated, and not treated…and treat others in that manner…in an agreement to live better.
      We have the ability to give consequences for behaviors to limit them…
      to have order in society. Man makes it work….no promise for ultimate reward or punishment necessary…
      Did you read my post in the past (linked to in this post) called “Living with subjective morals, good without god?”
      I do believe very much that there are not solid “rights” and “wrongs’ black and whites that will always be the same whatever the circumstance…I believe that we can have a moral standard that can be pretty solid, based upon agreed upon goals and desires…
      Do you believe God controls the weather we see? do you believe he could stop some of the travesty we see? Is that a burden to you at all? And yes..I believe we all say…what love is…I think there are some pretty good definitions of the differing types of love…
      and i think there are differing types and definitions because we are a layered…being. 🙂
      I also believe that we can define good…as something real and coherent…and not just “god is good (even if he says to kill people or destroys people etc) “

  2. Very interesting, Holly! If I may just pick up on two words in the article: calling humanists ‘snotty elitists’ really resonates with me. I have often heard people who rely on religion calling us arrogant and pedantic and themselves honest and anti-intellectual. In fact, I’ve heard a talk by David Deutsch on TED and in the comments section, one theist rambled on about believers being called stupid again until a humanist pointed out that he was just imagining things and quoted the text, where nothing like that was said (!)
    So what is really going on there? Should I invest in some ‘proud to be ignorant’ buttons and sell them on Sundays in the vicinity of my local church? Or are they right in calling us aloof?

    • Perhaps it is to easy to carry over our frustrations from other conversations…(as I did in the post above) 😉 Even to the point where we see everyone under a label as being the same…I have happened upon all types of those who like to discuss such issues..and it is easy to turn a discussion board into “us vs them” everyone jumping on sides, and lumping the sides all together…so if one crazy person yells…”ignorant fools!” it means…all on that side have…. But I have run into some who are determined that ALL are the same…no matter what is said…such a paradigm of belief is perhaps…(never say never) impossible to shift…..

  3. An argument of that nature, as presented, is little more than a demonstration of the person’s lack of education.

  4. Granted that we are snotty elitist, I don’t think we stop anyone from reading, writing and debating so this is a charge that is not warranted.
    Anyone who is good because they fear a god is not truly good and should be feared by all of us!

  5. “Snotty elitists”
    Trust me…rather a snob than a slob.

    Inbred ingrates like this must recognize that they can practice their stupid beliefs because the live i a secular society.
    Damn hell with them….where’s my kindling and matches?

    • erm….lol ark…somehow…your reply went straight to spam….just found it and “outted” it…

      • My rap can’t be that bad, surely?

        • not by my count…but…What generally goes to spam? usually it is only “real” spam that ends up there…I thought that was especially weird since you have commented here before….?

          • Happens on a few blogs I am a regular.
            Not a train smash…

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