love and heretics

It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness

About

A former evangelical Christian…now agnostic atheist, who believes yet in LOVE.

Mother of three, musician, who loves the three l’s..of life,  learning, laughing, and loving.

 

 

On Morality:

https://loveandheretics.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/more-thoughts-on-morality-and-its-level-of-objectiveness/

https://loveandheretics.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/living-with-subjective-morals-good-without-god/

 

On Being a Skeptic, and Sir Arther Conan Doyle:

https://loveandheretics.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/111/

 

On Levels of Evidence, and the God experience:

https://loveandheretics.wordpress.com/2013/02/23/levels-of-evidence-and-the-god-experience/

 

Tales:
https://loveandheretics.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/of-heros-and-demons-a-tale/

58 Comments

  1. We for sure don’t need religion to have life or laugh or love.

    Some just learn it the hard way. lol Fortunately I was a fast learner. 🙂

  2. Sorry, I am an unconverted to agnosticism. Though my experience growing up in fundamentalism makes it easy to understand how you could be. If you don’t mind a skeptic of skepticism prowling around your blog I will poke around and see what I find.
    ttfn
    Carroll

    • sunofmysoul

      I am friends with many theists. I am by no means antitheist.
      ThankYou for dropping in, all perspectives are welcome.

    • Argus

      Good heavens! You don’t ‘convert’ to agnosticism or atheism. You just open your eyes (and mind) a bit.

      Try querying your religious sources, it all flows naturally from there.

  3. Argus

    Sadly, by contrast I am very much anti-theist. Not anti-person—I treat all strangers as worthy people until they prove themselves otherwise (such as people pushing their unique-among-thousands god). Theists are not into ‘live, and let live’. Theists are into the modern equivalents of rack, thumbscrew, strappado and stake. God protect me from blasted theists~!

    • @argus : I wouldn’t be able to survive well if i became anti-theist….my entire family, (hubby included) and most coworkers, neighbors etc are theist. I got lots of people prayin for me… 😉

      • Argus

        Oops, my bad. I said “anti theist” whilst meaning entirely anti-theism; a bit like saying anti-alcoholic whilst meaning anti-alcohol …

        I don’t blame the victims, I blame the pushers; to each his own.

        Some of my best friends are Christians, we know and accept each other for what we are (hah! Just try that in the States!). When we go to their place for dinner we make due obeisance to ‘Grace’; they come to ours, we invite them to do their bit before we tuck in and everyone is happy. No compromise, just live and let live …

        • Argus…. ((hugs)) I think i would like dinner at your place… 🙂
          It is more difficult in the states…but I have a few friends (and a husband) who are able to do just that….(mostly) 😉

  4. Hey there! I know you might be gone for a bit, but I like your blog so I nominated it for the Liebster Award! Check it out when you get the chance!

    http://evolvedlove.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/liebster-award/

    • thank you Evolved Love! I do appreciate it. I don’t really participate in those, but I thank you very much for thinking of me!

  5. Holly, I have to be honest, your blog name is what lured me here.

    • Welcome Charity. Glad you came!

  6. Well, we theists aren’t too fond of you, either.

    • Argus

      Jason … not too fond of whom? Do you speak for all theists? If/as a Christian theist—are you allowed to do that, and be ‘unfond’? Do you ‘love’ everyone through gritted teeth?

    • I admit to being puzzled by this response. Feel free to enlighten me.

      • Argus

        Oops … Christians have to love everyone, regardless. I guess ol’ Jason is working on it and finding it hard going. Are they allowed to only partially ‘love’ their enemies?

        Does ‘loving’ an atheist produce an inner stress?

        Despite the godly injunction I reserve my love for those who deserve it. As said before, people I don’t know get my goodwill until they demonstrate that they are worthy of love (or otherwise). I cannot give or profess my love to ratbags. Simply can’t do it …

        Jason was being circumspect and using a CYA euphemism for what he really feels for others, I’m sure.

        • sorry Argus, if there was any confusion, I think i clicked reply under you instead of Jason…and my question/puzzlement was meant to be a reply to Jason.
          I think I shall adopt you as my blog dog… 😉

          • Argus

            Always happy to serve a Lady~!

            wag-wag-wag

          • jason

            I think my use of the phrase “we theists” should have alerted you to whom I was addressing. You’re not one to be easily confused, Holly.

            • I thought perhaps it was a random response to your frustration with me. You are mistaken as to my state of confusion…it happens rather frequently. 😉

              • No, not with you. Quite on a whim I visited your blog here and saw Argus’s comments — which is why I responded.

        • Well, I for one am honored and flattered to be a “ratbag”. In fact, I’m gonna tattoo that label on the back of my underwear and show the world that “ratbags” every time I strip for the cougars who live down the street.

          • What the hell did your blog do to my last comment, Holly? Why’s it all chopped up? Stuff’s not even coherent.

            • Jason, if you are reading on a small screen, like a phone it will make all the bits of the reply look like 1 letter words going down the screen. (if the reply is to other replies of the reply. I don’t’ know why it does this) I can only read the replies on my computer screen when we get several replies in….

        • You really don’t know what I feel for others, Argus. Unless you’re omniscient, of course;-)

      • You’ve just been enlightened.

  7. Argo — I have a live-and-let-live policy when it comes to others who believe differently … at least until they start grandstanding about how awful theists are. In fact, even as a Christian, I spent many years defending your religious freedom and combatting the kind of Christian behavior you no doubt despise. However, if you wish to continue pontificating about how I can’t possibly love others simply because I responded to your highly disparaging tone (i.e. “,Theists are into the modern equivalents of rack, thumbscrew, strappado and stake”) be my guest. If throwin punches without provocation and then rearing back all indignant when someone like me calls you to the mat, then keep it up. Just don’t expect silence from our end.

    • Argus

      “Live and let live” … if only.

      My disparaging tone is the best I can do for the millions of innocents slaughtered in the name of Allah, Jupiter, gentle Jesus, and gods alone know how many deities beloved of theists everywhere.

      Of course I shan’t shut up—in fact I’ll even go over to the Dark Side and post about it. If you are a Christian it’s your own history we’ll be looking at, enjoy. And if you want to bite my head off, please go for it—with my blessing. (Do you still love me?)

      • Argus: It’s ironic how you talk about theists lacking a “live-and-let-live” policy when you barge onto a blog announcing your own aversion to theists. Until you showed up posing as some third-rate Sam Harris wannabe, no one else participating here was dissing anyone. You entered the blog posting multiple disparaging comments toward theists by way of introduction, apparently not realizing that a theist might actually come along and see your comments. At which point said theist will naturally respond — which flies against your blatant insinuation when you wax lyrical about how Christians are supposed to love others that we’re supposed to just lie down and take it when those like you burst onto the scene with asinine, self-defeating potshots. I could easily adopt your same attitude about nontheists — but if I did so, I guarantee you’d be there to label such a blanket-perception the farce it truly is. You and everyone else participating on this blog. So if I’m not inclined to view all nontheists as smug, pompous douche-canoes convinced of their own myopic, ivory-tower perception of reality, then it’s not unreasonable me to expect the same courtesy from you.

        Unless, of course, you’re not a reasonable person.

        • Argus

          Wow~!

      • i understand your tone ,argus, for those who have been slaughtered…however, is that relevant to a modern christian?
        do you know any that go about slaughtering others?

        • Of course it’s relevant, Holly — As Argus will no doubt tell you, and as I was told just yesterday by another atheist apparently going by the same playbook, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Well, I can assure you, Holly, that I haven’t forgotten about the Crusades, or the Salem Witch Trials, or Matthew Shepard being tied to a fence-post and pistol-whipped, or the last appearance by the Westboro Baptist Church at another funeral for a known homosexual, or all the other crap that has been committed both historically and today in the name of Jesus Christ.

          And do you know why?

          Because I can always rely on those like Argus to be there to remind me.

          • Argus

            KING JASON:
            I’ll leave folks alone to do their own thing in private so long as they leave me alone. When they importune me in the street, pound on my door and ruin the ‘peaceful enjoyment’ of my own home, when they flood me with their ridiculous literature I feel a bit aggrieved.
            When they inveigle into positions of power in the governing hierarchies I begin to dread.

            Unlike you, I see no (as in nil, zero, zilch) difference between Islam, Judaism, and of course the only true path to God: Christianity* .

            So yes, I shall (God willing) always be here to remind you. Got it one …

            ========================
            * So which franchise are you with, hmmm? Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Anglicans … all of them unique and guaranteed a place at God’s table—for their own devout. (Choose carefully, if you understand the meaning of the word ‘unique’—and for the sake of your eternal soul, don’t get it wrong!)

            • I’m the last of the Mohicans, Argus — that’s my “franchise”, as you so eloquently deem it. Look, you and I can have a reasonable relationship on this blog. It’s definitely within your grasp. I’m a pretty reasonable guy, myself. However, if such is beyond your scope, I’ll play hardball. Not a problem.

              • Argus

                I have the feeling I may have rattled your cage … to prevent it happening again, please define ‘reasonable’. Don’t forget that I’m a foreigner and English is my premier language.

        • Argus

          Bugger~!

          I was using a different browser and someone somewhere must have reset something and I lost my somewhat lengthy reply. Possibly just as well … but to answer your question—no. Neither do I know any Islamists likewise. Or Jews (got some lovely snaps of phosphorous raining down on a crowded university, though).

          Is it relevant to a modern Christian? Absolutely. Same God then, same God now—same rules apply, only the interpretations differ.

          • What rules, Argus? Oh, you must mean the rules Christ lays down throughout the gospels: Love God, and love thy neighbor as thyself — two rules He kept calling the “sum of the Law of Moses and the Prophets.” You must be talking about those implied rules of proper Christian conduct when Christ talked about feeding and clothing and giving drink and shelter to the “least of Him” in Matthew 25:31-46 (the final standard of judgment, btw, for we Christians you just loooooove to hate.) You must be talking about all those behavorial edicts handed explicitly handed down throughout the entire New Testament where we’re told to turn the other cheek and to never repay evil for evil and even — GASP! — to see all others as “better than ourselves” (I can quote you chapter and verse for each one of these.)

            You must be talking about THOSE rules when you talk about how God never changes, right?

            • Sorry for the typos — This format doesn’t have a “delete” or “edit” option.

              • Argus

                Type it all up. Then, without hitting the dread button, go out and have a coffee (mow the lawns, polish the car … tattoo ‘ratbag’ on all your knickers, whatever… ) then come back and read it through. If you still like it, post it.

                If you don’t like it, amend it; then post it later after you’re sure it’s what you meant to say.

                If you goof by rattling off an impassioned but unwise response, and sending it (“There! That’ll show the £$£@*&%!!!”) immediately … not good.

                Good luck …

                Act in haste, repent at leisure; but do it properly first time and you won’t need a delete button.

          • Hmmm. Here I think about the blind man scenario. six blind men around an elephant, all describing what they see…one sees the booty…perhaps sticks his hand in and finds a surprise…
            Is this…the elephant?
            one touches the trunk and thinks it is a ginormous snake…
            is this the elephant?
            parts or pieces of a whole…differing interpretations are not necessarily the whole.
            yes?

            • Argus

              Entirely~! (Put me down for the trunk end …)

              • lol. my point being that even if they all see it incorrectly…is that evidence that the one that sees a whole elephant, or even if no one sees the whole elephant..that one does not exist?

                • Argus

                  Sadly they will happily go to war and kill each other in an effort to covert each other—

                  “We Trunkers have the Elephant!”
                  “No, you heathen bastard—we Leggers have the whole Elephant! And beware of any seductive liars telling you otherwise!”
                  “Naaaa! Youse guys is both wrong! Only we Holy Butt perceivers can see the One True Elephant!”
                  “Calling us Leggers liars, are you? Take that~!”
                  “Ouch! Then you take that—!”

                  bash-biff-kick-gouge-bite-clobber-maim-kill etc etc as always …

                  In the meantime the unenlightened outside the Holy Cave peering blindly in get on with life wondering what all the fuss is about.

                  • “Happily go to war and kill each other in an effort to convert each other,” you say? Nah. I don’t recall ever doing anything like that. I would say the same for most Christians I know — who are just normal people like you, we simply believe differently. Making us all out to be a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth Neanderthals in T-1000 Mode really does nothing for your credibility.

                    • Argus

                      You called me normal … thank you~!

                  • really Argus? None of the christians i know personally are like that…In fact no many religions left are like that…religions themselves have evolved…
                    And I think the point of Jason’s post was that Jesus never asked it of his followers. Quite the opposite in fact…forgive seventy times seven? turn the other cheek?

                    • Argus

                      He was nice …

                    • Argus

                      I never knew Adolf Hitler personally, either, nor Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Atilla the Hun, George Bush or any of the other great mass murderers in history.

                      Religions — plural — do indeed evolve but so long as folks can compartmentalise their minds (it means: ignore the nasty bits) they’ll stay in business. Eternal Truths can also be adapted to suit changing mores, even if it means turning a blind eye to reality.

                      In London recently a British soldier was run down by a car then pounced on by a a furious Islamic and had most of his head sawed off in the street—apparently in Holy Revenge for all the Christian atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan and places. And as I stated before, I loved the pretty patterns made by the blazing phosphorous raining down on universities and other innocents … gorgeous images, Christian made Willie Pete being fired against Islam by Jews. But you could be right, “In fact no many religions left are like that…religions themselves have evolved…

                      We live in different worlds, I guess. Peace …

  8. Oh, and btw — I haven’t slaughtered millions of innocent people in the name of my God. In fact, my religion directly promotes the opposite of such behavior. Had you actually looked into it, you would have concluded the same. And holding me responsible for the sins of past behaviors committed by others is like holding the Holocaust against a German simply because that person is German. By way of criticizing Christians, you’re bringing nothing to the table I haven’t seen a thousand times before — a copout and excuse to exploit your own “antitheistic” mindset.

    • Argus

      Two wows …

  9. Now, I’m going to formally introduce myself to this blog: My name is Jason. I’m 39 years old, college graduate, married ten years and no children. I’m a Christian. Before my conversion in 2001, I also was an “antitheist” who spent most of his time being political active against the overwhelming influence of Christian churches in my homestate of Alabama and against other Christ-professing pulpit bullies whom I deemed “asshats”: folks like Judge Roy Moore, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Falwell, etc.. In 2003 I completed a nonfiction book called “Jesus Christ: Scapegoat”, an unapologetically scathing commentary against Christian “asshattery” as well as a historical summary of religious freedom as it pertains to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The book, however, was never published and now exists as a dismembered corpse in the memory banks of my Word program. I have my own blog called “Rogue In the King’s Court”.

    I have known Holly for quite some time now and have been a co-member of hers on other forums. I was invited to this blog some time ago.

    I defend church-state separation, gay marriage, Roe v. Wade, immigration reform and support other issues involving civil rights and the “rights of conscience” (as James Madison would call it).

    Since the completion of the aforementioned book, however, I’ve changed my mind about a lot of things (save of course for those I just referenced) and have had a chance to actually grow in my faith — a faith, I remind my Viewing Audience At Home, that promotes the exact opposite of all the negative creep you see carried out in my Savior’s name.

    Both the skeptic and even the professing Christian, by smoothly cherry-picking the details, will always throw Leviticus and Deuteronomy at the previous statement by way of retort … while silently overlooking the literal treasure-trove of Scriptures specifically addressing how we Christians should behave, the emphasis on compassion, humility and servitude to others stark and inarguable.

    Not long ago I was under the impression that I could judge the merits of a religion or faith by the conduct of its professing followers.

    I was even quite GOOD at doing it.

    For some reason, however, God decided He had other plans for me …

    • Argus

      Furthermore, Wow~!

  10. “King Jason”, Argus? Really, now? I’ll admit it’s not nearly as cute as you being Holly’s “blog-dog”, but it’ll do for now;-)

    • Argus

      Whichever you prefer—Jason, the full King one?

  11. Gakeat

    It is good to believe in love. Sounds like a good philosophy for an agnostic atheist to live by.

    • Thank you gakeat, I agree.
      You have given me some food for thought on a new post…

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